{"id":2460,"date":"2012-06-11T09:01:59","date_gmt":"2012-06-11T14:01:59","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.zanthan.com\/wordsintobytes\/?p=2460"},"modified":"2019-02-27T06:13:45","modified_gmt":"2019-02-27T12:13:45","slug":"guru","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.zanthan.com\/wordsintobytes\/language\/kanji\/guru\/","title":{"rendered":"I Can&#8217;t Know What You Want"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<!--\nGPlus Timestamp: Jun 11, 2012 9:01:59PM\nGPlus Permalink: https:\/\/plus.google.com\/+MSinclairStevens\/posts\/LqiMfSe3FUs\n->-->\n\n\n<p>What fascinates me about Japanese is how certain forms that would merely be politely evasive in English are built into Japanese grammar. For example, when I speak of desire, I use different words when speaking of my own desires in contrast to a third party&#8217;s desires. I can know about my own emotional state but I can only guess what other people are feeling.<\/p>\n<h3>~garu<\/h3>\n<p>In English, I want a new car. He wants a new car. Same verb.<br \/>In Japanese:<\/p>\n<p style=\"padding-left: 40px;\">\u79c1\u306f\u65b0\u3057\u3044\u8eca\u304c\u307b\u3057\u3044\u3093\u3067\u3059\u304c\uff0e\uff0e\uff0e<br \/>Watashi wa atarashii kuruma ga hoshii n desu ga&#8230;<br \/>(lit) Talking about me, it&#8217;s that a new car is desirable, but&#8230;<br \/>I want a new car.<\/p>\n<p style=\"padding-left: 40px;\">\u6751\u4e0a\u3055\u3093\u306f\u65b0\u3057\u3044\u8eca\u3092\u307b\u3057\u304c\u3063\u3066\u3044\u308b\u3002<br \/>Murakami-san wa atarashii kuruma wo hoshigatte iru.<br \/>(lit) Talking about Mr. Murakami, it appears he wants a new car.<br \/>Mr. Murakami wants a new car.<\/p>\n<p>The same holds true for things I want to do (which is a different form in Japanese than things I want to have.) Verb stem + tai for my own desires; Verb stem + tagaru for a third person&#8217;s desires.<\/p>\n<h3>Conviction, Expectation, Opinion, Probability, Possibility, Hearsay<\/h3>\n<p>Like English, Japanese has a lot of words that you can tack onto the end of a declarative sentence to hedge your bets. These are fairly equivalent to English but the Japanese use them a lot more (than Americans, anyway). An American will say unequivocally, &#8220;Damn! It&#8217;s going to be hot tomorrow.&#8221; A Japanese person can&#8217;t know the future. So he adds, &#8220;No doubt,&#8221; (ni chigai nai); &#8220;I expect,&#8221; (hazu da); &#8220;I think,&#8221; (to omoimasu); &#8220;Probably&#8221; (desho); &#8220;Possibly&#8221; (kamoshiremasen); &#8220;So I heard&#8221; (so da).<\/p>\n<h3>Conjecture<\/h3>\n<p>Just to drive home the point that we can never be certain, Japanese has multiple ways of expressing conjecture depending on how reliable my sources are and how much conjecture is involved.<\/p>\n<h4>Solid Conclusion Based on Observable Evidence<\/h4>\n<p>If, looking at the observable evidence, I&#8217;m able to form a fairly solid conclusion, I use (yo da) or (mitai). For example, I might see some puddles on the ground and conclude it has recently rained.<\/p>\n<p style=\"padding-left: 40px;\">\u96e8\u304c\u964d\u3063\u305f\u3088\u3046\u3060\u3002<br \/>ame ga futta yo da.<br \/>It appears to have rained.<\/p>\n<h4>Immediate Impression Which Requires More Proof<\/h4>\n<p>In contrast, based on a first impression that doesn&#8217;t require much thinking or indicates an impending action, I use (so da). [Not to be confused with the &#8220;so da&#8221; used for hearsay.]<\/p>\n<p style=\"padding-left: 40px;\">\u30b1\u30fc\u30ad\u306f\u304a\u3044\u3057\u305d\u3046\u3060\u3002<br \/>ke-ki wa oishiso da.<br \/>The cake looks delicious. (I can&#8217;t know it&#8217;s delicious until I taste it.)<\/p>\n<h4>Assumption Based On What You&#8217;ve Heard<\/h4>\n<p>And then there is a conclusion based on second hand information. (rashii). Maybe you heard that Mr. Murakami wasn&#8217;t at his desk.<\/p>\n<p style=\"padding-left: 40px;\">\u6751\u4e0a\u3055\u3093\u306f\u3082\u3046\u5e30\u3063\u305f\u3089\u3057\u3044\u3067\u3059\u3002<br \/>Murakami-san mo kaetta rashii desu.<br \/>(Based on what I heard) it seems Mr. Murakami has already gone home.<\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>Like ~garu, these forms of conjecture are also used to distinguish between what I know about my own emotional state (I&#8217;m irritated) and what I&#8217;m guessing about yours (He seems to be disappointed.)<\/p>\n<hr \/>\n<p>If you speak a language other than English, I&#8217;d be interested in knowing how you express certainty, uncertainty, and conjecture. Do you just append certain qualifying words to make your statements less absolute? Or is the ability to express uncertainty built into the grammar?<\/p>\n<p class=\"cont\">For English speakers around the world, does unadorned American speech lack nuance or sound aggressively over-confident? Or does British speech sound like so much beating around the bush? (I live with a Brit and this discussion has come up at our house.) And English as spoken elsewhere?<\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<h4>GPlus Discussion<\/h4>\n<p>Still unformatted.<\/p>\n\n\n<!--\nShared publicly\u2022View activity\nHide 9 comments\nMark\u00e9ta Gajdo\u0161ov\u00e1's profile photo\nMark\u00e9ta Gajdo\u0161ov\u00e1\n+3\nDid I just procrastinate from  learning Spanish by learning Japanese? Cool! Thank you very much \ud83d\ude42\nREPLY\n\ue800\nJun 11, 2012\ue5d4\nM Sinclair Stevens's profile photo\nM Sinclair Stevens\n+1\n+Eric Yap Good to see you stop by! I hope I got all my Japanese examples correct. It seems like a long time ago when you used to help me... back when I first started studying  Japanese and writing my old blog \u306f\u3058\u3081\u307e\u3057\u3087\u3046.\nREPLY\n\ue800\nJun 11, 2012\ue5d4\nEric Yap's profile photo\nEric Yap\n+1\n+M Sinclair Stevens I've been reading all your posts and recommendations as well. Not being able to write extensively makes me feel so left out of the world. \n\nFirstly my respect to your quantitative time spent on thinking about the grammar or a language you merely speak much in daily life. There are much rooms left -- not purposely I know -- for arguable discussions but I am not going into that. Will write my little thought inspired from this post. \nREPLY\n\ue800\nJun 11, 2012\ue5d4\nPavlos Papageorgiou's profile photo\nPavlos Papageorgiou\n+2\nGreat post. I work with British, American and Japanese colleagues. The Brits seem to wordcraft their way around everything to the point that their communications seem unclear or even dubious (what is he trying to say?). The Americans do sound over-confident, tend to express overly strong rather than nuanced points, and have a tendency to keep speaking while they think.\n\nThe main thing I notice with our Japanese colleagues is that nouns become very heavy. As westerners we might use a word like \"architecture\" and it may mean various different layers of software and\/or hardware design at different times. For us the word may really just mean \"design\" and be informed by context. The Japanese group will try to define exactly what is the meaning of \"architecture\" in the project and that meaning will remain very concrete and fixed way past the time that us westerners have come to think of it differently. That came as a surprise because it's the opposite of what I see in Japanese movies (where characters are very multi-dimensional).\nREPLY\n\ue800\nJun 12, 2012\ue5d4\nM Sinclair Stevens's profile photo\nM Sinclair Stevens\n+Pavlos Papageorgiou Thank you for your insights. Certainly people who know me say I speak while I'm still thinking. Sometimes I leave my internal commentary track turned up so that it's audible to others. It's part of the way I work through a problem -- to talk through it.\nREPLY\n\ue800\nJun 12, 2012\ue5d4\nGene Jordan (GeekTinker)'s profile photo\nGene Jordan (GeekTinker)\n+1\n+M Sinclair Stevens Thank you for the inspirational post about language use.  Have you ever heard the podcast from Henry Rollins when he talks about the phrases, \"Be Drinkable\" (a sign he saw on a water fountain, I believe in Japan) and \"Your Choice Is Fish\" (told to his group by their translator after checking with the chef as to what items on his menu were available, I believe in a Communist Russian restaurant. If you search for his name and those phrases online, you should be able to find the audio for that podcast. Henry Rollins is a very deep thinker\/observer and an intelligent wordsmith.\nREPLY\n\ue800\nJun 12, 2012\ue5d4\nM Sinclair Stevens's profile photo\nM Sinclair Stevens\n+Gene Jordan I'll look him up when I get a moment. One of my favorite books on cross-cultural communication is the very slim volume from 1984, With Respect to the Japanese  \nhttp:\/\/www.zanthan.com\/wordsintobytes\/reviews\/book-reviews\/with-respect-japanese\nREPLY\n\ue800\nJun 12, 2012\ue5d4\nJonas Neergaard-Nielsen's profile photo\nJonas Neergaard-Nielsen\n+1\nGreat little article. I haven't thought about Japanese grammar for a while, so thanks for bringing it back \ud83d\ude42\nThere's certainly a multitude of ways to express uncertainty in Japanese, and it is done quite a lot.\n\nAs for Danish, I can't really tell whether our way of expression is closer to American or British English, but - being a closely related language - grammatically it is very similar. \u3068\u601d\u3044\u307e\u3059.\nREPLY\n\ue800\nJun 12, 2012\ue5d4\nYonatan Zunger's profile photo\nYonatan Zunger\nVery interesting. Hebrew (my native language) doesn't have any obligatory evidential markers; it's much like English in this, and speakers are definitely not famous for moderating their statements.\nREPLY\n\ue800\nJun 12, 2012\ue5d4\nClay Zimmerly's profile photo\nClay Zimmerly\n(In a setting where there are both British and American people.) I can't count how many times I've made a general\/non-absolute statement (or rounded a number to the nearest decimal) and the nuance words are completely ignored and my statement is taken as if I am speaking the absolute truth, to which the other people in this forum react with zeal to 'prove me wrong'. It might be the fault of this particular forum, though. It seems it has a higher than usual population of pedantic people who, at the same time, can't really figure out what I'm trying to say.\nREPLY\n\ue800\nJun 12, 2012\ue5d4\nDaniela Huguet Taylor's profile photo\nDaniela Huguet Taylor\nIn Spanish, there is a lot (a lot!) more subjunctive used than in English, which also makes it a lot less definite.\nREPLY\n\ue800\nJun 12, 2012\ue5d4\nM Sinclair Stevens's profile photo\nM Sinclair Stevens\n+1\n+Daniela Huguet Taylor So I see! \u96e3\u3057\u305d\u3046\u3067\u3059\u3002(Seems difficult.)\nhttp:\/\/www.studyspanish.com\/lessons\/subj1.htm\nREPLY\n\ue800\nJun 12, 2012\ue5d4\nDaniela Huguet Taylor's profile photo\nDaniela Huguet Taylor\nYes, the English struggle quite a lot with the Spanish subjunctive, I taught Spanish online for a couple of years and it was one of the main stumbling points.\nREPLY\n\ue800\nJun 13, 2012\ue5d4\nnomad dimitri's profile photo\nnomad dimitri\n+3\n+M Sinclair Stevens : i agree with the comments of +Pavlos Papageorgiou about UK vs US & japanese.  i love your euphemism \"politely evasive\": it has felt often as hedging bets or evading responsibility or, simply, exporting it to the cloud.  but this sort of thing is not unique to japan: you find it in most asian languages & quite a bit of it in more archaic (pre-modern) forms of western languages as well.  here, i am suggesting that the west has been more \"asiatic\" about its communication rituals in the past.\na lot has to do with minimizing the possibility for conflict & violence & quite a bit is class-based.  surely, there is no \"politely evasive\" tone when a samurai addresses his manservant or when a brahmin addresses a dalit (but plenty the other way around...)\ni'd love to hear about how the japanese avoid saying \"no.\"  in indonesian \"no\" & \"I\", for example, are minimized.  example: they divide time between \"already\" & \"not yet.\"  so when you ask, \"has sinclair arrived yet?\", rather than a rude, abrupt western \"no\" you get a more polite & hopeful \"not yet.\"  it is also the standard response of childless couples or bachelors when they are asked about marital status & progeny (which are questions #3 & #4 in the indonesian country side).\ni have a weakness for the musicality & softness of asia-nglish, even singlish: all these -lah's at the end of words, sometimes i feel i don't want to live without them...\nREPLY\n\ue800\nJun 14, 2012\ue5d4\nM Sinclair Stevens's profile photo\nM Sinclair Stevens\n+1\n+nomad dimitri \u3061\u3087\u3063\u3068\u9055\u3046\u3002I meant \"politely evasive\" in a slightly different way. Of course, in Japanese one can be extraordinarily polite or extraordinarily rude. Applying the correct level of politeness in speech to the hierarchy of relationships is a very difficult thing for the non-native speaker to learn.\n\nIn this post, however, I was examining the different grammatical forms I'm forced to use if I'm talking about my own desires or emotions as opposed to another's. That is, it's not optional. It's not a matter of style. It's part of the grammar. In Japanese, I can't say, \"He wants a car.\" I have to say, \"He seems to want a car.\"\nREPLY\nJun 14, 2012\n\n-->\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>What fascinates me about Japanese is how certain forms that would merely be politely evasive in English are built into Japanese grammar. For example, when I speak of desire, I use different words when speaking of my own desires in contrast to a third party&#8217;s desires. I can know about my own emotional state but I can only guess what other people are feeling. ~garu In English, I want a<\/p>\n<div class=\"belowpost\"><a class=\"more-link\" href=\"https:\/\/www.zanthan.com\/wordsintobytes\/language\/kanji\/guru\/\">Read More<\/a><\/div>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[334],"tags":[333],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.zanthan.com\/wordsintobytes\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2460"}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.zanthan.com\/wordsintobytes\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.zanthan.com\/wordsintobytes\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.zanthan.com\/wordsintobytes\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.zanthan.com\/wordsintobytes\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=2460"}],"version-history":[{"count":10,"href":"https:\/\/www.zanthan.com\/wordsintobytes\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2460\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":3039,"href":"https:\/\/www.zanthan.com\/wordsintobytes\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2460\/revisions\/3039"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.zanthan.com\/wordsintobytes\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=2460"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.zanthan.com\/wordsintobytes\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=2460"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.zanthan.com\/wordsintobytes\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=2460"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}